[Split] Paul Johnson

[fatkid]

Just curious on everyone's feelings for the dead Iraqis that the Apache helicopters killed.  Paul Johnson was in the Middle East working for Lockheed Martin (who I absolutely despise!) to repair Apache 'copters so that they could go back in to kill more people...  I think what happened to Mr. Johnson is absolutely terrible... But I feel the exact same way for the people that he helped to kill...

[SoaringUSAEagle]

Just curious on everyone's feelings for the dead Iraqis that the Apache helicopters killed.  Paul Johnson was in the Middle East working for Lockheed Martin (who I absolutely despise!) to repair Apache 'copters so that they could go back in to kill more people...  I think what happened to Mr. Johnson is absolutely terrible... But I feel the exact same way for the people that he helped to kill...

I can see where you are coming from... I really have no comment because I dont want to say something now I will regret later or say something and have someone else take it the wrong way.

Either way, Paul Johnson was doing his job... working on helicopters.  I still see him as innocent.  And what kind of people were they killing with the helicopters?

[fatkid]

Either way, Paul Johnson was doing his job... working on helicopters.

That's not a viable excuse...  Read up on the Nuremberg Trials... Just doing your job is no excuse to kill people... Now Mr. Johnson didn't directly kill people... But he very actively indirectly participated in the deaths of people... 

Does that mean I'm not sympathetic to a man who has died? Not at all... My heart goes out his family... To his brothers and sisters... His children and his wife... To his parents and to all of his friends and relatives that he has left behind...
My heart goes out to every soldier that goes to war for the freedoms I enjoy... They make sacrifices I will never understand or know about...  And I am ever grateful for their sacrifices...

And what kind of people were they killing with the helicopters?

They were people... And that's my point... They aren't "heathens" or "evil-doers"... They are people just like me or you... If circumstances we're switched how would you respond?  Your friends and brothers are in prison... Countless numbers of people you've known and loved have been killed... The only thing you've grown up knowing is war, fighting, and death... You come across a man that plays a part in the death of all of those people you've lost... What would you do?  What would you do if you came across the pilots who flew the planes into the World Trade Center towers?  When does the circle stop?  He killed us... Yeah, but you killed them... Yeah and they killed those people... Well you came and killed those other people... Well I'm going to kill you... Hey you killed him... Now I'm going to kill you... What were you doing killing him... He killed my friend... Well you just killed my friend, so I'm going to kill you...

I'm not saying I have any right or wrong answers and I'm sure my comments may incite and anger others... But this isn't a cut and dry problem/solution...  I just enjoy hearing other's opinions on the subject...

And finally one of my favorite quotes by one of the smartest men of our times;
Mahatma Gandhi
"It may be long before the law of love will be recognized in international affairs. The machineries of government stand between and hide the hearts of one people from those of another."

[METALLICA]

i,d just like to say all our thoughts are with the family of mr johnson ,

[DJ_]

Just curious on everyone's feelings for the dead Iraqis that the Apache helicopters killed.  Paul Johnson was in the Middle East working for Lockheed Martin (who I absolutely despise!) to repair Apache 'copters so that they could go back in to kill more people...  I think what happened to Mr. Johnson is absolutely terrible... But I feel the exact same way for the people that he helped to kill...

Here is how I feel about this....
Our troops got sent over there by a moron for a President, they are doing their jobs just like you when you go to work everyday.....only different is that they either get killed or have to kill to stay alife.... when things break someone has to fix it to keep our troops ahead of the game, if the equipment that they need to do their jobs with fails then there is a good chance that they will get killed. I don't give flying f**k who Paul Johnson worked for, all he was doing was his job to keep out troops alife! There are a few bad apples amongst our troops but most of them are good soldiers that have families and they want nothing more than to make it home in 1 piece to see them again. For you to say "But I feel the exact same way for the people that he helped to kill" makes me sick, our people don't take a f**king knife and cut the head off of a prisoner while he/ she is still alife! They don't (the terrorists) follow the rules of engagement so what makes you feel for them? They never would've released Paul Johnson alife even if they would've gotten what they demanded, from day 1 when he got kidnapped his faith was sealed! I have no mercy and no feelings for terrorists because that's all they are, they use terror to try to get what they want. And here you have feelings for them, why don't you go over there and tell them I feel for you......lets see what they will do with you after you say that to them.
You wanted to know how I feel LOL you got it  ;D

[fatkid]

No no, I think that's a great responce DJ...

They don't (the terrorists) follow the rules of engagement so what makes you feel for them?

March 2002
When U.S. warplanes strafed [with AC-130 gunships] the farming village of Chowkar-Karez, 25 miles north of Kandahar on October 22-23rd,killing at least 93 civilians...

POSTED APRIL 1, 2002 (updated July 2, 2003)--
Between October 10 and December 20, 2001, U.S. bombs and missiles fell upon nine different mosques in Afghanistan, killing at least 120 innocent Afghan civilians. Mosques were hit in the provinces of Nangarhar, Kunduz, Herat, Kandahar and Paktia. The Pentagon admitted to only two 'mistakes'— one occurring on October 21 and another on November 16 in which two guided bombs went 'astray.'

Wednesday April 9, 2003
Eleven Afghan civilians were killed today when a US warplane pursuing enemy attackers mistakenly bombed a house near Afghanistan's eastern border with Pakistan, the US military said.
The civilians were killed when the bomb landed on the home on the outskirts of Shkin, 135 miles south of Kabul.

July 1, 2002 Posted: 10:31 PM EDT (0231 GMT)
BAGRAM AIR BASE, Afghanistan (CNN) -- At least 20 people were killed and more than 60 injured in Afghanistan when a U.S. plane dropped a bomb on a wedding party.

January 14, 2002
3900 Civilian Casualties Raises Questions: How Justly
Is This War Conducted? Were There No Alternatives?

A new study begs for those questions to be asked in the U.S., documenting Afghani civilian casualties of U.S. bombings from October 7 to December 29, 2001.

In Afghanistan, with one-tenth the population of the U.S., there are have been at least 3767 civilian casualties of U.S. bombing from Oct 7 to Dec 10, and then at least another 192 from Dec 10 to Dec 29, 2001. Using conservative methods, Professor Marc Herold has produced two studies of civilian casualties between those respective dates. To put this in perspective, that would be proportional to almost 40,000 civilians killed in the U.S.

And finally the best known civilian body counts in Iraq..
Minimum number of civilians killed: 9436
Maximum killed: 11317
Database Here
All sources are well documented.  They key to the sources is at the very bottom of the page...

What do you call those kinds of numbers?  A by-product of war?  They deserved it?
I agree with you whole heartedly that blame belongs on President Bush... I don't place the blame on Paul Johnson... But his actions DID have consequences... I also understand there are many many many more factors to consider... I doubt Mr Johnson made a whole lot of money... He says he doesn't want to go to Iraq and he could lose his job... Then how will he feed and clothe his family...  How will he pay for braces and school and cars etc...

But I disagree vehemently when you suggest that we as Americans hold the higher moral ground, or that it is a few bad apples...  That we follow "rules of engagement"...  What kinds of messages do we send to the people we go to "liberate" (I spit on the thought that we go to liberate anyone... We went to war for money, and money alone) when prisoners we take are beaten and stripped and ridiculed in the most disgusting ways you can imagine?  Need I even mention Abu Ghraib?

Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick said the following about his actions in Abu Ghraib:

"We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things...like rules and regulations," says Frederick. "And it just wasn't happening."

"Military intelligence has encouraged and told us 'Great job.' "

"They usually don't allow others to watch them interrogate. But since they like the way I run the prison, they have made an exception."

"We help get them to talk with the way we handle them. ... We've had a very high rate with our style of getting them to break. They usually end up breaking within hours."

Frederick says he didn't see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged. The Army investigation confirms that soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not trained at all in Geneva Convention rules.

[Thisnamenottaken]

WOW Fatkid...  I have to say your way of thinking is quite scary..... People are killed in automobile accidents so in your view we should kill all people who make cars and the mechanics that fix them...   Or people are shot every day so we should kill everyone who manufactures guns or ammo.   
What happened was not right no matter how you look at it..... Mr Johnson wasnt in the military he did his job.... He didnt tell the helicoptor pilots to kill anyone....    I have a daughter who has worked at a store that sold cigarettes so someone should kill her because someone they knew died from smoking?????   

[DJ_]

I hate for any civilian to get killed in any kind of way may it be due to human error, mechanical error or just plain terrorism.

But I disagree vehemently when you suggest that we as Americans hold the higher moral ground, or that it is a few bad apples...  That we follow "rules of engagement"...  What kinds of messages do we send to the people we go to "liberate" (I spit on the thought that we go to liberate anyone... We went to war for money, and money alone) when prisoners we take are beaten and stripped and ridiculed in the most disgusting ways you can imagine?  Need I even mention Abu Ghraib?

You seem to point only the bad things out (I agree what happened to those prisoners is wrong!) but how many good things came out of this war? People seem to forget those real quick because the media only shows the bad and not the good! It's all about ratings; who gets the highest numbers when breaking news happens. Who wants to know about a military doctor that helped giving birth to little Mohamed in the most impossible conditions? The media can care less about that because it doesn't boost ratings, so all we end up with is nothing but the bad news about innocent people getting killed or tortured. I can not imagine my self being in a warzone with my fellow soldiers/friends and having to look at one of their dead bodies laying there mutilated.
Does that give me the right to go out and torture prisoners of war? Hell NO!
Those soldiers that did that need to be punished to the fullest extend of the law! Again there are more good soldiers than bad ones that follow the rules of engagement and treat POW's like it's written in the Geneva convention. Not knowing the rules is no excuse to torture any living person, they could've just kept him hostage for months and months instead of cutting his head off!

(I spit on the thought that we go to liberate anyone... We went to war for money, and money alone)

I truly believe George W. Bush started the war to finish what his father didn't and to punish Saddam for all the death threats... How come if he went to war for the oil only, that the gas prices are so damn high? Shouldn't they be lower now and we all are saving money on gasoline? Maybe ones the war is over and Iraq finally has peace we will see cheaper gasoline prices, to be honest I highly doubt that that will be the case; because the US has way too much to lose in the eyes of the international comunity!
That leaves us with "money alone"....lets say you're right and Bush went to war for the money alone. Who will get the money; the US, the Bush family or the the international comunity?
Again the US has way to much to lose by stealing Iraq's money, any person with only half a brain can see that! I'm not sure if Bush has even half of a brain but I believe some of his advisers do and truly want to do what's right for the Iraqi people and this country.

War leaves a bad taste in everyones mouth no matter how you spin it but to say you feel for the killers (terrorists) of Paul Johnson leaves a really nasty taste in my mouth. Being ignorant is no excuse for what they did, there are different ways to deal with your anger and frustration. But then again what can you expect from cave people, yes cave people because they hide in caves like animal and cover their faces when cutting someones head off! They don't have the balls to show their faces but yet they claim to do the right thing, if I was doing the right thing I wouldn't be scared to show my f**king face.
That tells me that they know what they're doing is wrong!
Let the debate continue  ;D

[ZaLandCruiser]

I hate for any civilian to get killed in any kind of way may it be due to human error, mechanical error or just plain terrorism.

But I disagree vehemently when you suggest that we as Americans hold the higher moral ground, or that it is a few bad apples...  That we follow "rules of engagement"...  What kinds of messages do we send to the people we go to "liberate" (I spit on the thought that we go to liberate anyone... We went to war for money, and money alone) when prisoners we take are beaten and stripped and ridiculed in the most disgusting ways you can imagine?  Need I even mention Abu Ghraib?

You seem to point only the bad things out (I agree what happened to those prisoners is wrong!) but how many good things came out of this war? People seem to forget those real quick because the media only shows the bad and not the good! It's all about ratings; who gets the highest numbers when breaking news happens. Who wants to know about a military doctor that helped giving birth birth to little Mohamed in the most impossible conditions? The media can care less about that because it doesn't boost ratings, so all we end up with is nothing but the bad news about innocent people getting killed or tortured. I can not imagine my self being in a warzone with my fellow soldiers/friends and having to look at one of their dead bodies laying their mutilated.
Does that give me the right to go out and torture prisoners of war? Hell NO!
Those soldiers that did that need to be punished to the fullest extend of the law! Again there are more good soldiers than bad ones that follow the rules of engagement and treat POW's like it's written in the Geneve convention. Not knowing the rules is no excuse to torture any living person, they could've just kept him hostage for months and months instead of cutting his head off!

(I spit on the thought that we go to liberate anyone... We went to war for money, and money alone)

I truly believe George W. Bush started the war to finish what his father didn't and to punish Saddam for all the death threats... How come if he went to war for the oil only that the the gas prices are so damn high? Shouldn't they be lower now and we all are saving money on gasoline? Maybe ones the war is over and Iraq finally has peace we will see cheaper gasoline prices, to be honest I highly doubt that that will be the case; because the US has way too much to lose in the eyes of the international comunity!
That leaves us with "money alone"....lets say you're right and Bush went to war for the money alone. Who will get the money; the US, the Bush family or the the international comunity?
Again the US has way to much to lose by stealing Iraq's money, any person with only half a brain can see that! I'm not sure if Bush has even half of a brain but I believe some of his advisers do and truly want to do what's right for the Iraqi people and this country.

War leaves a bad taste in everyones mouth no matter how you spin it but to say you feel for the killers (terrorists) of Paul Johnson leaves a really nasty taste in my mouth. Being ignorant is no excuse for what they did, there are different ways to deal with your anger and frustration. But then again what can you expect from cave people, yes cave people because they hide in caves like animal and cover their faces when cutting someones head off! They don't have have balls to show their faces but yet they claim to do the right thing, if I was doing the right thing I wouldn't be scared to show my f**king face.
That tells me that they know what they're doing is wrong!
Let the debate continue  ;D

Dj, I agree with you and, already those 2 indaviduals have gotten killed , they were killed i heard after they were disposing the body of Paul Johnson. Gas prices have gone up because they haven't stolen any of the Iraqie oil they are gonna let the "New" government Deal with it and it is getting harder to get Oil for us because other countrys like Japan , China have increased the demand for oil ( and there getting a lot of our jobs) there are some reasons ... LET THE DEBATE GO ON!

[Stupiddave99]

http://ogrish.com/paul-johnson-beheaded-1.jpg   http://ogrish.com/paul-johnson-beheaded-2.jpg    http://ogrish.com/paul-johnson-beheaded-3.jpgWould show images but too groosum everyone heres the pics of the beheading got this in email   :-\ .

Those are disgusting :( :P :-\

[Thisnamenottaken]

in reading Fatkids post... I have to assume he is not an american as he has no problem bashing americans and knows alot about everything that happens in Afganistan.... If I read that wrong or misinterperted it please correct me
There is NO right reason for killing anyone.... Mr Johnson personally did no harm to anyone   that his job contributed to people getting killed is not a reason to kill him.

[ZaLandCruiser]

No, there is no reason they should kill him because of that, there just jelous of what we have and there just SICKNNING people and cant leave us alone  :'(.

[DJ_]

in reading Fatkids post... I have to assume he is not an american as he has no problem bashing americans and knows alot about everything that happens in Afganistan

No fatkid is an American he just has a twisted mind  :P....he's not afraid to say what's on his mind and I respect him for that.  ;D

[SoaringUSAEagle]

I am more involved with the president of the United States of America than anyone here on this forum, at least the active ones that post.  I do not see any of you saying you are in the service serving our country.  I dont even know where to start – So here are my thoughts on the previous posts.

If I get sent off to war and have to kill people, am I going to be hated by you Fatkid?  I will just be doing what I am told to do ya know.  My Commander in Chief, President Bush, is doing the best he knows how with the terrorism and the war over there ok?  I really beg to differ with your comment of, "I truly believe George W. Bush started the war to finish what his father didn't and to punish Saddam for all the death threats" DJ, because without us going over there and removing Saddam from his power, what do you think would be happening to the world, and especially the United States?  Granted, not as many soldiers would be in Iraq or surrounding areas for the reasons they are now.  But I am not going to the length of saying that no soldiers would be dying because a terrorist attack to a base here in the US could have happened.  It still can as well.  President Bush didn't go to war only for the oil.  Bush didn't go to war for the money alone either.  He went, mainly, to capture the "evil-doers" and give them the justice they deserve. 

And if any of you know about government and look past the President, you would know that not all of these decisions are Bush's alone ok?  There is Congress and this and that and this and that.  "Check and Balances" has had a great effect on this country.  Everyone is bashing Bush left and right for the things he has done during his presidency so far and it isn't all quite right.

A lot of people just seem to skim the surface of politics and government and go by what the media says – including stuff off the Internet. 

Fatkid, you have a lot of "what ifs" and I just don't fly with those because I don't like thinking like that too often.  I mean I didn't want to antagonize this subject with saying my prayers, apologies, and condolences to Paul Johnson. 

The men that were part of Paul's last minutes in life were a branch of Al Qeada.  How do you know these men have been raised as you say Fatkid, "The only thing you've grown up knowing is war, fighting, and death."  A lot of people hate Americans just because we are free.  The other Americans that remain in Saudi Arabia at the moment are very cautious... They go in public at very odd times and days, trying to stay hidden because they know they aren't liked.

And I still don't understand what the helicopter pilots and passengers were doing to people in Saudi Arabia besides killing them.  Was it the "government" over there?  Who were they killing?  The Nuremberg Trials had to do with post WWII and Nazis being killed.  That is a touchy subject right there and I don't want to get into that, and don't want to get this post started on that topic. 

We cannot change history, only learn from it and try to avoid repeating it if it's negative. 

I have an indirect participation in peoples' deaths too... I drive a car that emits fumes that are harmful to the ozone layer, which causes more radiation to beam down onto the people and give them more sever cases of skin cancer.  This shit just goes in circles Fatkid.

And moreover, this is about morals, and why would anyone think that beheading a human is right and humane?  People in Saudi Arabia and all other parts of the world do not think it's the common way of death.  People were trying to stop the murder of Paul Johnson.  1400+ homes were raided.  Doing a job is one thing... Fixing helicopters has nothing to do with killing people.  I do not believe Paul was indirectly afflicted in the killings of whoever was killed.  I mean shit, go back to mechanics... They fix vehicles that people use to commit vehicular homicide... Is that thought of when the homicide takes place?  Oh, Mr. Mechanic, you deserve to be beheaded for working on the vehicle that killed my loved one.

DJ, I agree with your comment, "our people don't take a f**king knife and cut the head off of a prisoner while he/ she is still alive!"  We do use guns, yes, and most of those deaths are quick, and more human than using a knife that probably isn't the greatest, and having to *details not being discussed as I get goose bumps even thinking of it* just to kill someone?  Even a clean chop is just nasty.  Being beheaded is NOT RIGHT IN 99.9999999999999999999% of the Earth.

This can take you back to the Salem Witch Trials... It's basically the same shit.  Being hung for thinking you are committing witchcraft.  To me, hangings are more humane than beheadings.  But maybe that's because people commit suicide the same way.  Beheadings just aren't right... period.

I am here to protect myself and the United States first and foremost, and then the rest of the world comes next.  By joining the Army National Guard, I am seeing the world in a different perspective and I wish others would as well.  Don't blame 100% of everything that goes wrong on the President of the United States of America, because 100% of the time, it's not always 100% of his actions and words being displayed.  Everyone always points out the negative it seems.  This world has really gone pessimistic these days.  Try to be optimistic for once.

Well, I will continue to serve the United States of America proudly.  No one will ever tear me of that pride.  I hope I have brought up some issues that really hit home.

- Jeff

[Thisnamenottaken]

Applause Soaring ..... very well spoken.  I agree with you 100%
Everyone in this country NEEDS to BLAME everything on Someone... it cant just have happened it HAS to be someones fault....not always true. 
For instance everyone wants to blame our government on the 9-11 attacks.  That they knew ahead of time...  Someone please tell me what could have been done to change what happened.  I dont think the threats, named  names and dates and which plane or act of violence they were going to commit.  There is nothing that could have been done to stop that.  IF Im correct the terrorists boarded the planes outside the US.  Yes threats have been made and will continue to be made on a daily basis... but seriously if some 16 year old terriorist girl or boy wants to strap a bomb to themselfs and walk into your local mall and kill 100's we cant stop that.  I seriously dont understand why as a country we divide when things bad happen and want to throw blame.... as long as there are terrorists out there there will acts of terriorism....

[FogHorn]

For God's sake, when are we going to get "Operation Flaming Turban" underway in earnest???
Enough of this, already!!

God bless his family, I can't imagine the pain of knowing your loved one died this way.

I absolute HATE these SOB's. I wish we could catch them and give them the same end!!!!!!


Muslims want violence, and death, let's give it to them.

I'm sick of these alleged "people".

[fatkid]

Oh sweet shit... I just got back from the movies, The Terminal (which I fully enjoyed btw)... Now let's get down to business; as we have lots of issues to address...

FogHorn is a perfect example of ignorance in America...
So Fog let's say you catch them and kill them... Then what?
They come and catch you and kill you...
Then your friends catch them and kill them...
Then their friends catch your friends and kill them...
And so on and so on and so on...

My underlying point through all my posts has been, where does the violence end?
Tell me FogHorn, where does the violence end?  How do you stop it?  What is your suggestion?  Where I seem to point to life, that I feel for the people who have committed these acts and would love to understand them, to find a solution to their problems, to end the fighting peacefully, you seem to point only to more death.  Do two wrongs make a right?  Do three wrongs make a right?  Do four, or five?  How about a hundred?  The answer is unequivocally, no!  They do not...  So tell me your wonderfull solution... I've got it, you pointed it out so perfectly... It's the Muslims fault... God how could I have not seen it?  That's the Final Solution... Let's get rid of those ****ing Muslims and we'll all be a-ok... Extermination of the Muslims seems to be the answer...  So when you finally decide to write your responce just title it Mein Kampf part 2, we'll start setting up the foundations for the Fourth Reich and purify the whole world...

Soaring, you say that there are lots of other people behind the scene working for Bush... Making decisions, choices, etc, but who in the end has the ultimate say?  Bush... As commander and chief the buck stops there, plain and simple... When it comes to matters of the military he has the end-all, say-all... No one else has the authority that the President does when it comes to matters of war, not even Congress combined (house and senate)...

And I still don't understand what the helicopter pilots and passengers were doing to people in Saudi Arabia besides killing them.  Was it the "government" over there?  Who were they killing?  The Nuremberg Trials had to do with post WWII and Nazis being killed.  That is a touchy subject right there and I don't want to get into that, and don't want to get this post started on that topic.

I'm not sure what you were trying to say here, but here at two explanations of what I can only assume...  Apache helicopters are used for one, and one purpose only... War...

According to HowStuffWorks.com:
"The Apache helicopter is a revolutionary development in the history of war. It is essentially a flying tank -- a helicopter designed to survive heavy attack and inflict massive damage. It can zero in on specific targets, day or night, even in terrible weather. As you might expect, it is a terrifying machine to ground forces."

I used the example of the Nuremberg Trials as an example that "You're just doing your job" isn't a viable excuse when what you are doing is immoral...  You had stated that Mr. Johnson was just doing his job... My feelings for his actions toss and turn constantly...  As DJ pointed out VERY well, without someone there to repair the helicopter more U.S. soldiers die... And I think DJ has made a very good point concerning Mr. Johnson's duties, but as I stated I toss on this all day long when thinking about it...  I don't in anyway NOR have I in any post said that he got what he deserved, or that he should have been killed as Thisnamenottaken tried to put words in my mouth...

WOW Fatkid...  I have to say your way of thinking is quite scary..... People are killed in automobile accidents so in your view we should kill all people who make cars and the mechanics that fix them...   Or people are shot every day so we should kill everyone who manufactures guns or ammo.   
What happened was not right no matter how you look at it..... Mr Johnson wasn't in the military he did his job.... He didn't tell the helicopter pilots to kill anyone....    I have a daughter who has worked at a store that sold cigarettes so someone should kill her because someone they knew died from smoking?Huh?

Point out my statements where I said anything remotely even close to the idea that Mr Johnson should have been killed... What I pointed out was the dichotomy of Mr Johnson... On one hand we see him as a terrible terrible victim of an awful crime...  On the other he IS an enabler to the deaths of many... That's what my posts were pointing at... Not that he EVER deserved what he got, or that what happened was right... Finally thisnametaken cars are not created to kill people... Though it is arguable, guns are not usually created to kill people (Let's not argue about current gun laws on this thread right now, that's just too much on one plate; besides most know I'm NOT an avid fan of guns by any means)...  As I've shown in this post Apache helicopters have one purpose and one design; war, death, destruction; all one in the same...

[fatkid]

..Continued...

Now to more of your posts Jeff, (btw you can call me Dan; only seems fair sense I know your name :))

If I get sent off to war and have to kill people, am I going to be hated by you Fatkid?  I will just be doing what I am told to do ya know.

Have you read anything I've written?

Guess now that I'm on here I should throw out my thanks as well...
Takes a lot to do what you're doing Jeff... Best of luck...

We'll all be waiting to hear back from you I'm sure...  :)

Does that mean I'm not sympathetic to a man who has died? Not at all... My heart goes out his family... To his brothers and sisters... His children and his wife... To his parents and to all of his friends and relatives that he has left behind...
My heart goes out to every soldier that goes to war for the freedoms I enjoy... They make sacrifices I will never understand or know about...  And I am ever grateful for their sacrifices...

Here's a real quandary for you Jeff... What do you do when your staff sargent orders you to gas hundreds of innocent people?  If you don't do it, you could be court marshaled, dishonerably dismissed, or worse yet shot on the spot for treason... A more real example... What happens when everone is sitting around the jail with the POWs and you're ordered to "prepare" them for questioning... Subject them to starvation, beatings, humiliations, all not in accordance with the Geneva pacts as Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick and others facing trial have stated they were told by superiors to do...

Along the same lines, do I hate the soldiers who did this to the Iraqi POWS? Not at all... I will never understand the horrors those men and women were subjected to... I will never understand the sacrifices that they have taken, and as such cannot be upset at them for their actions... I'm upset that things like that happen but am not in anyway upset at the soldiers... It is my same attitude toward Mr Johnson and to the terrorists in the Middle East and to the people of the Middle East... It is something that everyone deserves...  To put it simply I detest the actions, but not the actors, because there is more to their story than I will ever know...

And finally I point to the fact that over 10 of thousands of Middle Eastern civilians have been murdered, yes I use the word murdered, and the best responce (not to mention the only responce) I get is from DJ...

I hate for any civilian to get killed in any kind of way may it be due to human error, mechanical error or just plain terrorism.

We have had a handful killed in the Iraq war, and they've suffered through 10s of thousands... That's fine if you don't want to listen to that, but here is undeniable fact... Since U.N. sanctions were put in place on Iraq (no help with food, medicine, or economic support; the sanctions were put in place in the early 90s) over 500,000 Iraqi children, under the age of 5, died (the report was released in 2000; so how many more in the past 4)...  That's out of the realm of murders, that's a genocide!  A U.S. lead, U.N. sanctioned genocide!  The trend of death continued until 1996 when the U.N. relaxed the sanctions to allow Iraq to sell  oil to purchase food, medicine, and other humanitarian aid items... 500,000 children under the age of 5!!!  I mean that number is just out of the realm of understanding...  How many more children in the 5-12 age bracket?  What about the trends of Iraqi's being able to live until they see their 18th birthday?  This 500,000 is only for children under the age of 5!  But as American's we hold the higher moral ground, because these people are "evil-doers" and "heathen cave people"... They got what they deserved for invading Kuwait

Here's the real deal info:
http://www.againstbombing.org/childunicef.htm

"July 21, 2000 at 1:23 PM ET by Reuters
-
UN Says Sanctions Have Killed Some 500,000 Iraqi Children
     BAGHDAD - A senior U.N. official said Friday about half a million
children under the age of 5 have died in Iraq since the imposition of
U.N. sanctions 10 years ago.
Anupama Rao Singh, country director for the U.N. Children's Fund
(UNICEF), made the estimate in an interview with Reuters.
``In absolute terms we estimate that perhaps about half a million
children under 5 years of age have died, who ordinarily would not have
died had the decline in mortality that was prevalent over the 70s and
the 80s continued through the 90s,´´ she said...

...Sanctions were imposed on Iraq as punishment for its 1990 invasion of
Kuwait, although the United Nations has allowed Iraq to sell oil to buy
food, medicine and other humanitarian supplies.
Rao Singh said the sanctions also have affected the quality of
education, with many children forced to leave schools to hustle a living
on the streets."

Now to the points on oil and money...
DJ, we seem to think similarly on this, and so I'm sure we'll be able to go along on this end very well...
Do you think that for a second Bush has you, Average-Joe American, in his heart?  Do you believe that he cares how low your oil prices are?  Do you think he cares how much money you have in your pocket?  After the Enron circus there is no doubt in my mind that Bush could give a flying **** about me and my economic conditions... Big Business has its' hand so far up Cheney's ass he's just a puppet that they control...  Haliburton and Bush and Cheney have been in bed for years and it's finally being exposed... We live in a society where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer every day... Bush seems to take a lot of his economic lessons from Regan, and it's been proven that Regan-omics (i.e. trickle down economics) do NOT work... That cash does not flow downward, but instead stays in the hands of the greedy corprate leaders of America...  There's a good reason oil prices haven't gone down... OPEC and Bush and Haliburtion don't want them to... It means billions upon billions of dollars go into their pockets...

[FogHorn]

You know, I'm quite older than you guys....(In my sixties), so I remember what Hitler and his thugs did to the world.  My dear mother was in a concentration camp. (And No, she wasn't Jewish.


Call me insensitive, but I did not feel a drop of sadness for enemy prisoners when the media had their field day with the Abu Ghraib prison photos. I viewed them as a few soldiers letting off steam on a bad day, against people who were trying to kill them only a few days beforehand. I'm more upset that these photos have been so irresponsibly plastered everywhere, putting a target on the backs of our boys and girls who continue to fight for our country in the Middle East, and probably inciting the recent beheadings.

WHY OH WHY have we, as Americans, become more concerned with the "well-being" of enemy prisoners rather than the brutal, bloody beheadings of our fellow citizens? Why can't we see the photos of the beheadings on the TV news? Why are we being mollycoddled by the media? Where are the photos from the WTC and Pentagon burning to remind us of why we fight the War on Terror? You know, the ones of broken steel and desperate workers falling from the Twin Towers? Why are we being treated like children by a media who thinks we're not grown-up enough to see the brutality which terrorists would someday like to inflict on all of us?

Maybe seeing these photos is what it will take to wake us all up to the fact that WE ARE AT WAR with these savages. We had better face up to the reality of this terrorist enemy or our freedom will be just another distant memory. If you think I'm exaggerating, ask any Israeli Jew about their daily white-knuckle bus commute or a lunchtime visit to a pizzeria with their child that is nothing short of nerve-racking.

Putting panties on the heads of enemy prisoners is nothing. At least they still HAVE their heads, unlike Mr. Berg and Mr. Johnson.
A few weeks ago, the French representative to the European Parliament was saying he saw no reason 'insurrectionists' should not have access to nuclear weapons.

Imagine what would happen if they get their hands on nuclear weapons. They have not compunction with killing a few. The only thing prohibiting them from killing many is the method. When (not if) they get nuclear, biological, or chemical capabilities, they will come with them. The next 9-11 may be 10's or even 100's of thousands of bodies

Muslims all over the world go to their friday prayers and get an earful of "blame the jews, hate all non Muslims, kill all non Muslims, commit suicide for sex, etc." The entire religion is an insane death cult.

Muslim = violence

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/terrorist2.html

[Thisnamenottaken]

WOW Foghorn.... congrats
You made a very good statement and opened my eyes and hopefully a few more....
You are so right..... WHY do they think its right to show the prision pictures 100 times a day in Magazines, newspapers and Television.... yet not show any photos of what has been done to the americans..  Our media tries to make this violence look one sided and like we are the bad guys.... hmmmmmm now that you brought it to my attention... I wonder why.