- Welcome to PogoCheats Forum.
PogoCheats CommunityDownload Cheats | Club Center | Pogo Help
Pogi Constellations | Anagram Solver
Pogo Daily Checklist
Pogi Constellations | Anagram Solver
Pogo Daily Checklist
Posted by SoaringUSAEagle
- June 20, 2004, 08:11:04 PMQuote from: YZrider on June 20, 2004, 07:18:05 PMQuote from: TonySoprano on June 20, 2004, 04:36:16 PMI agree with you that the Saudi's are weak little bitches and we should stand together. I definitely do not think murder is murder and I don't think Paul Johnson agrees with you either. If I were him I would have been begging to be shot. This is where I shall bring the word torture into the conversation. Sawing a man's head off and taking pictures makes me think of torture. Not just murder. Dumb Iraqi pricks. We have enough bombs we should have decimated the whole country into nothing. Or just left the stupid pricks alone until they finally pissed us of enough to decimate them into oblivion. Would you miss the head sawing pricks or their kids that would grow up to be (guess what) Head sawing pricks too.
Murder is murder. Thus it scarcely matters if a person is shot, stabbed, or in the case of Paul Johnson, beheaded. But that medieval form of death still deepens our shock at the brutal taking of an innocent life of a father, husband, and son whose only crime was being among 30,000 Americans who live and work in Saudi Arabia. We are bound to a weak ally in Saudi soil. They need our skills and manpower, we need their oil. A family grieves. A nation recoils in horror. Yet the task remains the same: to stand firm, to strike our foes with all our might, and to demand that our "friends" do no less.
Whoa, someone is a bit angry here. This has basically been stated YZ... We do not agree with the way Paul Johnson left planet Earth in body form. His spirit is still out there roaming. What I dont get, is on the news, it showed the main guy with a gun... But they use knives to kill... Interesting.
I do not believe we should decimate the whole country. Terrorists are still on the loose in other countries. No I wouldnt miss the terrorists one bit.
That was quite the post YZ... 1% of which I agree with.
Posted by ronandamee1
- June 20, 2004, 07:18:05 PMQuote from: TonySoprano on June 20, 2004, 04:36:16 PMI agree with you that the Saudi's are weak little bitches and we should stand together. I definitely do not think murder is murder and I don't think Paul Johnson agrees with you either. If I were him I would have been begging to be shot. This is where I shall bring the word torture into the conversation. Sawing a man's head off and taking pictures makes me think of torture. Not just murder. Dumb Iraqi pricks. We have enough bombs we should have decimated the whole country into nothing. Or just left the stupid pricks alone until they finally pissed us of enough to decimate them into oblivion. Would you miss the head sawing pricks or their kids that would grow up to be (guess what) Head sawing pricks too.
Murder is murder. Thus it scarcely matters if a person is shot, stabbed, or in the case of Paul Johnson, beheaded. But that medieval form of death still deepens our shock at the brutal taking of an innocent life of a father, husband, and son whose only crime was being among 30,000 Americans who live and work in Saudi Arabia. We are bound to a weak ally in Saudi soil. They need our skills and manpower, we need their oil. A family grieves. A nation recoils in horror. Yet the task remains the same: to stand firm, to strike our foes with all our might, and to demand that our "friends" do no less.
Posted by TonySoprano
- June 20, 2004, 04:36:16 PMMurder is murder. Thus it scarcely matters if a person is shot, stabbed, or in the case of Paul Johnson, beheaded. But that medieval form of death still deepens our shock at the brutal taking of an innocent life of a father, husband, and son whose only crime was being among 30,000 Americans who live and work in Saudi Arabia. We are bound to a weak ally in Saudi soil. They need our skills and manpower, we need their oil. A family grieves. A nation recoils in horror. Yet the task remains the same: to stand firm, to strike our foes with all our might, and to demand that our "friends" do no less.
Posted by ronandamee1
- June 20, 2004, 02:21:03 PMIts a damn shame this guy had to die the way he did. None can justify it at all. The manner in which this man was killed was horrible and cruel. I saw the tape of the other guy being beheaded. If Mr. Johnson died the same way, in a sawing motion. I feel very bad for him and his family. The whole building helicopters thing: Who knows if the terrorists even knew thats what he did? They killed him because he was American. I pray that at least a couple of those apache's he repaird can offer him some vengance by killing at least some of the men responsible for what happened to him. No one deserves what Mr. Johnson got. I also don't think what goes on in our pow camps to what goes on in their pow camps. They are chopping fuc)ing heads off for christs sake. When some american over there takes out his knife and chops one of their heads off, then you can compare. But if it helps the soldiers to undress those idiot Iraqi Wimps that could not even protect their own country. More power to them...lol
My favorite quote will be from Chris Rock today:
If Iraq was such a threat, how did we take it over in two weeks? You could not take over Baltimore in two weeks. ;) >>>edited by YZrider<<<
My favorite quote will be from Chris Rock today:
If Iraq was such a threat, how did we take it over in two weeks? You could not take over Baltimore in two weeks. ;) >>>edited by YZrider<<<
Posted by Blue Aquarius
- June 20, 2004, 01:57:57 PMQuote from: bob@pogopal on June 20, 2004, 12:37:16 PM
Dan,
You hijacked a memorial posted by those who grieve and anger over a heinous act of murder. You hijacked the memorial to spout ideological nonsense and the lowest sort of sophist crap. You now ask about your deceit: You repeated the UN's absurd and thoroughly debunked deceptions to support your ideology.
Thank you Bob!! I said this in an earlier post but that got ignored. So glad to see I am not the only one who feels that this thread was hijacked.
Posted by bob@pogopal
- June 20, 2004, 12:37:16 PMDan,
You hijacked a memorial posted by those who grieve and anger over a heinous act of murder. You hijacked the memorial to spout ideological nonsense and the lowest sort of sophist crap. You now ask about your deceit: You repeated the UN's absurd and thoroughly debunked deceptions to support your ideology.
You can think of me whatever you will. I could not care any less what a blinded ideologue thinks of me.
I am sure you intend well. I respectfully suggest you are paving your road with your good intentions just as fervently as the Bushes paved theirs. I sincerely hope you someday realise the error of your ways and choose a different road.
You hijacked a memorial posted by those who grieve and anger over a heinous act of murder. You hijacked the memorial to spout ideological nonsense and the lowest sort of sophist crap. You now ask about your deceit: You repeated the UN's absurd and thoroughly debunked deceptions to support your ideology.
You can think of me whatever you will. I could not care any less what a blinded ideologue thinks of me.
I am sure you intend well. I respectfully suggest you are paving your road with your good intentions just as fervently as the Bushes paved theirs. I sincerely hope you someday realise the error of your ways and choose a different road.
Posted by fatkid
- June 20, 2004, 12:22:29 PMWhere is the deciet in my discussion? Where do I not point to factual evidense where it can be pointed to?
If anyone is guilty of sophistry, you only need look in a mirror... I hear big claims from you, but I see no proof...
I'm not even about to get into a pissing contest, but I will not sit back and be called a liar, when the person making the claims is just as guilty as myself...
If anyone is guilty of sophistry, you only need look in a mirror... I hear big claims from you, but I see no proof...
I'm not even about to get into a pissing contest, but I will not sit back and be called a liar, when the person making the claims is just as guilty as myself...
Posted by bob@pogopal
- June 20, 2004, 12:01:19 PMDan,
I am well versed in the history of the region and of the world. I see no need to waste my time responding to sophistry or elevating sophistry beyond its true station.
If you want to pretend to engage in a well-reasoned rational discussion, you need to step up to the plate equipped for the game. I have already given your posts more than they deserve.
I am well versed in the history of the region and of the world. I see no need to waste my time responding to sophistry or elevating sophistry beyond its true station.
If you want to pretend to engage in a well-reasoned rational discussion, you need to step up to the plate equipped for the game. I have already given your posts more than they deserve.
Posted by fatkid
- June 20, 2004, 11:56:58 AMAnd I'm the one staring blankly at emperical evidence? You won't look at any points other than your own...
Posted by ZaLandCruiser
- June 20, 2004, 11:56:13 AM
Saudi officials claim Abdulaziz al-Moqrin, the reputed leader of al-Qaida in the kingdom, was killed in a shootout. (AP/Al Arabiya)
Posted by ZaLandCruiser
- June 20, 2004, 11:53:38 AMSite Claims Police Helped in Abduction
By SALAH NASRAWI, AP
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (June 20) - Al-Qaida militants disguised in police uniforms and cars provided by sympathizers in the Saudi security forces set up a fake checkpoint to snare the American engineer they later beheaded, according to an account of the operation posted on an Islamic extremist Web site Sunday.
The account of Paul M. Johnson Jr's abduction highlighted fears that some diplomats and Westerners in the kingom have expressed, that militants have infiltrated Saudi security forces, a possibility Saudi officials have denied.
In a separate article on the Web site, the leader of the al-Qaida cell behind the abduction justified the targeting of Johnson, pointing to his work on Apache attack helicopters for Lockheed Martin.
Johnson "works for military aviation and he belongs to the American army, which kills, tortures and harms Muslims everywhere, which supports enemies (of Islam) in Palestine, Philippines, Kashmir," wrote Abdulaziz al-Moqrin, who was killed by Saudi security forces in a gunbattle Friday night, hours after Johnson's slaying.
The articles in Sawt al-Jihad, or Voice of the Holy War, a semimonthly Internet periodical posted by al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, came as police continued their search for Johnson's body and the militants involved in his death.
Police in armored vehicles and a helicopter sealed off three neighborhoods of the Saudi capital Sunday, searching any cars that tried to leave the areas.
The article said militants wearing police uniforms and using police cars set up a fake checkpoint June 12 on al-Khadma Road, leading to the airport, near Imam Mohammed bin Saud University.
"A number of the cooperators who are sincere to their religion in the security apparatus donated those clothes and the police cars. We ask God to reward them and that they use their energy to serve Islam and the mujahedeen," the article read.
More on This Story
· Al-Qaida Cell Confirms al-Moqrin's Death
· New Jersey Town Mourns for Johnson
· World Leaders Condemn Hostage Slaying
· U.S. Companies Not Fleeing Saudi Arabia
· Americans in Saudi Arabia Fear for Attacks
· Saudi Anti-Extremist Campaign Ineffective
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
· AOL Search: Saudi Arabia
When Johnson's car approached the checkpoint, the militants stopped his car, detained him, anesthetized him and carried him to another car, the article said. Earlier Saudi newspaper reports had also said Johnson was drugged during the kidnapping.
The article said they then blew up Johnson's car.
Security officials said last week that Johnson's car was found near Imam University. Saudi press reports said the car was booby-trapped and later caught fire.
On the same day as Johnson's abduction, militants shot and killed another American, Kenneth Scroggs of Laconia, N.H., in his garage in Riyadh.
Earlier that week, militants in the capital also shot and killed Irish cameraman Simon Cumbers, who was filming for the British Broadcasting Corp. when he was shot, and another American, Robert Jacobs of Murphysboro, Ill.
After the kidnapping, his captors said they would kill Johnson on Friday unless Saudi Arabia released jailed al-Qaida militants - a demand the Saudi government refused.
Sunday's al-Qaida article said the militants decided to behead Johnson when Adel al-Jubeir, foreign affairs adviser to Crown Prince Abdullah in Washington, declared that Saudi Arabia would not negotiate with the kidnappers.
"The stupid Saudi government took the initiative and announced by the Americanized tongue Adel Al-Jubeir that it will not submit to the conditions of the mujahedeen," the statement read.
The group said it beheaded Johnson, 49, when its deadline expired Friday.
Al-Moqrin's final article, written after Johnson's kidnapping, described the American as "an infidel, a warrior of the military."
Al-Moqrin replied to critics urging the release of Johnson, saying: "Do those people want to see this infidel carry on the killing of the children and the raping of the women in Baghdad and Kabul?"
"We can't preserve the dignity of Muslims but through these means," he wrote.
Al-Moqrin, believed to be the top al-Qaida figure in Saudi Arabia, was killed along with three other militants in a Riyadh gunbattle Friday night, hours after photos of Johnson's body and severed head were posted on a Web site.
The others killed were identified as Faisal Abdul-Rahman al-Dikheel, Turki bin Fuheid al-Muteiry and Ibrahim bin Abdullah al-Dreiham. Al-Dikheel was believed to be the No. 2 al-Qaida militant in Saudi Arabia.
One security officer was killed and two were wounded in the gunbattle, the official Saudi news agency reported.
The Interior Ministry said 12 suspected militants also were arrested in a sweep of the capital.
The ministry said authorities also confiscated forged identity papers, $38,000 in Saudi and American currency, three rocket-propelled grenade launchers, hand grenades, automatic rifles and other weapons.
06-20-04 14:36 EDT
By SALAH NASRAWI, AP
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (June 20) - Al-Qaida militants disguised in police uniforms and cars provided by sympathizers in the Saudi security forces set up a fake checkpoint to snare the American engineer they later beheaded, according to an account of the operation posted on an Islamic extremist Web site Sunday.
The account of Paul M. Johnson Jr's abduction highlighted fears that some diplomats and Westerners in the kingom have expressed, that militants have infiltrated Saudi security forces, a possibility Saudi officials have denied.
In a separate article on the Web site, the leader of the al-Qaida cell behind the abduction justified the targeting of Johnson, pointing to his work on Apache attack helicopters for Lockheed Martin.
Johnson "works for military aviation and he belongs to the American army, which kills, tortures and harms Muslims everywhere, which supports enemies (of Islam) in Palestine, Philippines, Kashmir," wrote Abdulaziz al-Moqrin, who was killed by Saudi security forces in a gunbattle Friday night, hours after Johnson's slaying.
The articles in Sawt al-Jihad, or Voice of the Holy War, a semimonthly Internet periodical posted by al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, came as police continued their search for Johnson's body and the militants involved in his death.
Police in armored vehicles and a helicopter sealed off three neighborhoods of the Saudi capital Sunday, searching any cars that tried to leave the areas.
The article said militants wearing police uniforms and using police cars set up a fake checkpoint June 12 on al-Khadma Road, leading to the airport, near Imam Mohammed bin Saud University.
"A number of the cooperators who are sincere to their religion in the security apparatus donated those clothes and the police cars. We ask God to reward them and that they use their energy to serve Islam and the mujahedeen," the article read.
· Al-Qaida Cell Confirms al-Moqrin's Death
· New Jersey Town Mourns for Johnson
· World Leaders Condemn Hostage Slaying
· U.S. Companies Not Fleeing Saudi Arabia
· Americans in Saudi Arabia Fear for Attacks
· Saudi Anti-Extremist Campaign Ineffective
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
· AOL Search: Saudi Arabia
When Johnson's car approached the checkpoint, the militants stopped his car, detained him, anesthetized him and carried him to another car, the article said. Earlier Saudi newspaper reports had also said Johnson was drugged during the kidnapping.
The article said they then blew up Johnson's car.
Security officials said last week that Johnson's car was found near Imam University. Saudi press reports said the car was booby-trapped and later caught fire.
On the same day as Johnson's abduction, militants shot and killed another American, Kenneth Scroggs of Laconia, N.H., in his garage in Riyadh.
Earlier that week, militants in the capital also shot and killed Irish cameraman Simon Cumbers, who was filming for the British Broadcasting Corp. when he was shot, and another American, Robert Jacobs of Murphysboro, Ill.
After the kidnapping, his captors said they would kill Johnson on Friday unless Saudi Arabia released jailed al-Qaida militants - a demand the Saudi government refused.
Sunday's al-Qaida article said the militants decided to behead Johnson when Adel al-Jubeir, foreign affairs adviser to Crown Prince Abdullah in Washington, declared that Saudi Arabia would not negotiate with the kidnappers.
"The stupid Saudi government took the initiative and announced by the Americanized tongue Adel Al-Jubeir that it will not submit to the conditions of the mujahedeen," the statement read.
The group said it beheaded Johnson, 49, when its deadline expired Friday.
Al-Moqrin's final article, written after Johnson's kidnapping, described the American as "an infidel, a warrior of the military."
Al-Moqrin replied to critics urging the release of Johnson, saying: "Do those people want to see this infidel carry on the killing of the children and the raping of the women in Baghdad and Kabul?"
"We can't preserve the dignity of Muslims but through these means," he wrote.
Al-Moqrin, believed to be the top al-Qaida figure in Saudi Arabia, was killed along with three other militants in a Riyadh gunbattle Friday night, hours after photos of Johnson's body and severed head were posted on a Web site.
The others killed were identified as Faisal Abdul-Rahman al-Dikheel, Turki bin Fuheid al-Muteiry and Ibrahim bin Abdullah al-Dreiham. Al-Dikheel was believed to be the No. 2 al-Qaida militant in Saudi Arabia.
One security officer was killed and two were wounded in the gunbattle, the official Saudi news agency reported.
The Interior Ministry said 12 suspected militants also were arrested in a sweep of the capital.
The ministry said authorities also confiscated forged identity papers, $38,000 in Saudi and American currency, three rocket-propelled grenade launchers, hand grenades, automatic rifles and other weapons.
06-20-04 14:36 EDT
Posted by bob@pogopal
- June 20, 2004, 11:49:52 AM'"Any who disagree are ignorant or insane." was never my intended statement whether implicit or directly stated.' -- More sophistry. I didn't bother to read beyond the opening sentence. You already have my analysis of the matter. 'Nuff said.
Posted by fatkid
- June 20, 2004, 11:41:06 AMBob,
"Any who disagree are ignorant or insane." was never my intended statement whether implicit or directly stated. I'll play devil's advocate in these discussions just to hear others thoughtful points of view; it can only help to widen my own view... What I said was that FogHorn is a perfect example of what I see as a societal problem, a microcosm if you will... You want to talk "any who disagrees" then head right there to FogHorn
There it is right there in all of its blissful ignorance. And my morals are perverse and evil?
You point to the Nuremberg Trials, and I will agree unconditionally, my example was very extreme... The actions of the German Army during WWII pale any actions done by Mr. Johnson... You also point to the use of Apache helicopters and Mr Johnson's role played with them... As DJ stated earlier and brought to my full attention, without him more Americans die... I acknowledged that idea fully, and found it to be very insightful, something I hadn't considered in my original thoughts, and stated as an eye opener in my second (or third) large post (I'm not above listening to others or for that matter changing my ideas given new thoughts and ideas ;))...
You seem to say I'm blinded by my embrace of socialism... To that I can agree... As we have these talks and discussions I'm opened up to new possibilities every day... I say that your hatred/disgust/unwaivering attitude toward socialism blinds you as well... You say "Any who disagree are ignorant or insane." was an argument of mine... What is it you are telling me? That all socialists "disregard years of empirical evidence"... That there is no merit what so ever to any type of socialist programs or governments... If I understand your attitude correctly (and correct me if I am wrong) that you care more about the self than about the collective good... That's a very capitalist attitude, that I am more important than the rest... I take an attitude that I am no more important than any other individual that has ever been alive, that my right to live is no better than any other person, be he a terrorist, a Muslim, an African, be he rich or poor... To me the problems of capitalism lie in the natures it breeds in it's constituents; greed... Horde everything you can before you die and forget the rest... That is where is see the greatest "evil" in capitalism, and where a socialist society can help to overcome that... That instead of having a few with money and power, that we can all rise up together, leaving as few behind as possible...
Jeff,
"Dan, I could say you are living in ignorance"
Living in ignorance of what? That we need to stop killing each other? That we can help raise a society out of its totalitarian dictatorship without ever having to fire a shot? I'm ignorant for believing in the power of love, of right, over the powers of hate and fear?
"Violence will never end – period." Why not? Because you won't let it? Because people who are full of fear and hate won't let it? Because we can't "broaden the view a little"? If you took my he kills, she kills, he kills as a literal idea then I'm sorry... The point I was making was the absurdity of FogHorns idea's of let's kill 'em all, because all that kind of attitude breeds is more of the same ignorance... We can end violence, but we cannot end violence with violence... And I'm living in ignorance?
"I would tell my Sergeant he is wasting breath and I would walk away. Call me an asshole... But I will not gas just anyone. NOW GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE AND GET BACK DOWN TO REALITY HERE."
I don't think you're following along very well with me here... You're yelling for what we agree on... And as I said with my examples of the gassing, it wasn't a very real life example (i.e. I was in reality before you started yelling)... But you dodged the question (of the real life examples; torturing prisoners etc), if what your Sargent orders you to do is illegal, what do you do?
Now back to the deaths of the civilians in the Middle East;
They are well documented and very well reported on... Bombing BY THE U.S.A. in both Afghanistan and Iraq have killed 10s of thousands of CIVILIANS... Cluster bombing campaigns lead to the worst civilian casualty rates... These are not lies, or made up figures... Look to ANY news source and you can find the figures (I've linked to the most accurate counts I could find so far already)... These figures are not of people killed by the Taliban or by Saddam, but that are known civilians that were accidentally murdered by bombing runs from U.S. War ships and fighter plans... There are 100s upon thousands of others that still have not been reported by A.P. reporting groups..
"the thousands of middle eastern people that have been killed is not even close to logical because the people died for different reasons."
I know, we died going in to liberate them, and they died when we went in to liberate them... It's crazy of me to see their deaths as related to American actions... And I'm not even dealing with the half-million children that have died from U.N. sanctions... Why not comment on it Jeff... Because a U.S. lead, U.N. sanctioned genocide of Iraqi children has you stumped... And I'm ignorant?
"We are not at fault for the hundreds of thousands of people over there that were killed in recent years. Saddam Hussein and his regime are."
Does punishing an entire country for one leaders actions make sense? Does killing 1 child for a leaders actions make sense? I sure as hell hope the world won't hold me responsible for what President Bush has done... But that is what the world, with the U.N., did to Iraq...
"Any who disagree are ignorant or insane." was never my intended statement whether implicit or directly stated. I'll play devil's advocate in these discussions just to hear others thoughtful points of view; it can only help to widen my own view... What I said was that FogHorn is a perfect example of what I see as a societal problem, a microcosm if you will... You want to talk "any who disagrees" then head right there to FogHorn
QuoteMuslims all over the world go to their friday prayers and get an earful of "blame the jews, hate all non Muslims, kill all non Muslims, commit suicide for sex, etc." The entire religion is an insane death cult.
Muslim = violence
There it is right there in all of its blissful ignorance. And my morals are perverse and evil?
You point to the Nuremberg Trials, and I will agree unconditionally, my example was very extreme... The actions of the German Army during WWII pale any actions done by Mr. Johnson... You also point to the use of Apache helicopters and Mr Johnson's role played with them... As DJ stated earlier and brought to my full attention, without him more Americans die... I acknowledged that idea fully, and found it to be very insightful, something I hadn't considered in my original thoughts, and stated as an eye opener in my second (or third) large post (I'm not above listening to others or for that matter changing my ideas given new thoughts and ideas ;))...
You seem to say I'm blinded by my embrace of socialism... To that I can agree... As we have these talks and discussions I'm opened up to new possibilities every day... I say that your hatred/disgust/unwaivering attitude toward socialism blinds you as well... You say "Any who disagree are ignorant or insane." was an argument of mine... What is it you are telling me? That all socialists "disregard years of empirical evidence"... That there is no merit what so ever to any type of socialist programs or governments... If I understand your attitude correctly (and correct me if I am wrong) that you care more about the self than about the collective good... That's a very capitalist attitude, that I am more important than the rest... I take an attitude that I am no more important than any other individual that has ever been alive, that my right to live is no better than any other person, be he a terrorist, a Muslim, an African, be he rich or poor... To me the problems of capitalism lie in the natures it breeds in it's constituents; greed... Horde everything you can before you die and forget the rest... That is where is see the greatest "evil" in capitalism, and where a socialist society can help to overcome that... That instead of having a few with money and power, that we can all rise up together, leaving as few behind as possible...
Jeff,
"Dan, I could say you are living in ignorance"
Living in ignorance of what? That we need to stop killing each other? That we can help raise a society out of its totalitarian dictatorship without ever having to fire a shot? I'm ignorant for believing in the power of love, of right, over the powers of hate and fear?
"Violence will never end – period." Why not? Because you won't let it? Because people who are full of fear and hate won't let it? Because we can't "broaden the view a little"? If you took my he kills, she kills, he kills as a literal idea then I'm sorry... The point I was making was the absurdity of FogHorns idea's of let's kill 'em all, because all that kind of attitude breeds is more of the same ignorance... We can end violence, but we cannot end violence with violence... And I'm living in ignorance?
"I would tell my Sergeant he is wasting breath and I would walk away. Call me an asshole... But I will not gas just anyone. NOW GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE AND GET BACK DOWN TO REALITY HERE."
I don't think you're following along very well with me here... You're yelling for what we agree on... And as I said with my examples of the gassing, it wasn't a very real life example (i.e. I was in reality before you started yelling)... But you dodged the question (of the real life examples; torturing prisoners etc), if what your Sargent orders you to do is illegal, what do you do?
Now back to the deaths of the civilians in the Middle East;
They are well documented and very well reported on... Bombing BY THE U.S.A. in both Afghanistan and Iraq have killed 10s of thousands of CIVILIANS... Cluster bombing campaigns lead to the worst civilian casualty rates... These are not lies, or made up figures... Look to ANY news source and you can find the figures (I've linked to the most accurate counts I could find so far already)... These figures are not of people killed by the Taliban or by Saddam, but that are known civilians that were accidentally murdered by bombing runs from U.S. War ships and fighter plans... There are 100s upon thousands of others that still have not been reported by A.P. reporting groups..
"the thousands of middle eastern people that have been killed is not even close to logical because the people died for different reasons."
I know, we died going in to liberate them, and they died when we went in to liberate them... It's crazy of me to see their deaths as related to American actions... And I'm not even dealing with the half-million children that have died from U.N. sanctions... Why not comment on it Jeff... Because a U.S. lead, U.N. sanctioned genocide of Iraqi children has you stumped... And I'm ignorant?
"We are not at fault for the hundreds of thousands of people over there that were killed in recent years. Saddam Hussein and his regime are."
Does punishing an entire country for one leaders actions make sense? Does killing 1 child for a leaders actions make sense? I sure as hell hope the world won't hold me responsible for what President Bush has done... But that is what the world, with the U.N., did to Iraq...
Posted by bob@pogopal
- June 20, 2004, 11:38:20 AMAll that said, I do criticize Bush.
He betrayed the soldiers for whom he is the civilian commander-in-chief. War by half-measures is evil and wrong. Both Bushes are guilty of this sin.
I suspect he was misled by the neoconservatives--a group with tribalistic and religious identity whose roots lie squarely in communism. Bush failed to man the armed forces for the war leaving the armed forces with too few personnel to secure the defeated Iraq -- leading to much misery, undermining the moral imperative that led to war and setting the stage for lingering bloodshed and ill-will in the region. And of course, killing more Americans than necessary in the process.
One can see this now with the "stop-loss" provisions and yet no conscription. ie. Forced service for those who have already served while taking no action to provide any future relief. This can only lead to bitter low morale.
I hope and pray November ends the Bush dynasty forever. I wish the Republicans had some way to choose a different candidate for the presidency.
On the bright side, at least Bush hasn't sullied the office.
He betrayed the soldiers for whom he is the civilian commander-in-chief. War by half-measures is evil and wrong. Both Bushes are guilty of this sin.
I suspect he was misled by the neoconservatives--a group with tribalistic and religious identity whose roots lie squarely in communism. Bush failed to man the armed forces for the war leaving the armed forces with too few personnel to secure the defeated Iraq -- leading to much misery, undermining the moral imperative that led to war and setting the stage for lingering bloodshed and ill-will in the region. And of course, killing more Americans than necessary in the process.
One can see this now with the "stop-loss" provisions and yet no conscription. ie. Forced service for those who have already served while taking no action to provide any future relief. This can only lead to bitter low morale.
I hope and pray November ends the Bush dynasty forever. I wish the Republicans had some way to choose a different candidate for the presidency.
On the bright side, at least Bush hasn't sullied the office.
Posted by FogHorn
- June 20, 2004, 10:41:26 AMThank you Soaring. There's so much I would like to say.....but just want to tell the young ones to study and read history (Know The Facts!) I too don't want to see Kerry in there....here's a little article from 1998 about flip flop Kerry:
1998: Kerry calls for ground troops to topple Saddam; Clinton not tough enough
The Boston Globe | February 23, 1998 | Aaron Zitner, Globe Staff
WASHINGTON -- Senator John F. Kerry, who began his public life as a Vietnam War protester, said yesterday that the United States should use ground troops to topple Iraqi President Saddam Hussein if he does not comply with international demands to give up chemical and biological weapons.
Kerry, a potential presidential candidate in 2000, said sending US troops into Iraq should be "the last option, but it is a legitimate option."
The state's junior senator said President Clinton had not been tough enough in his measures to subdue the Iraqi president.
Because Iraq will try to rebuild its chemical and biological weaponry after a US air attack, "we will not eliminate the problem for ourselves or for the rest of the world with a bombing attack," Kerry said.
Kerry said his conditional support for using ground troops put him "way ahead of the commander in chief, and I'm probably way ahead of my colleagues, and certainly of much of the country. But I believe this."
God Bless America, President Bush, Our Military (ESPECIALLY MY GRANDSON WITH SEAL TEAM 6)
1998: Kerry calls for ground troops to topple Saddam; Clinton not tough enough
The Boston Globe | February 23, 1998 | Aaron Zitner, Globe Staff
WASHINGTON -- Senator John F. Kerry, who began his public life as a Vietnam War protester, said yesterday that the United States should use ground troops to topple Iraqi President Saddam Hussein if he does not comply with international demands to give up chemical and biological weapons.
Kerry, a potential presidential candidate in 2000, said sending US troops into Iraq should be "the last option, but it is a legitimate option."
The state's junior senator said President Clinton had not been tough enough in his measures to subdue the Iraqi president.
Because Iraq will try to rebuild its chemical and biological weaponry after a US air attack, "we will not eliminate the problem for ourselves or for the rest of the world with a bombing attack," Kerry said.
Kerry said his conditional support for using ground troops put him "way ahead of the commander in chief, and I'm probably way ahead of my colleagues, and certainly of much of the country. But I believe this."
God Bless America, President Bush, Our Military (ESPECIALLY MY GRANDSON WITH SEAL TEAM 6)